Critique groups have their pros and cons.
by Anne R. Allen
I often advise new writers to join critique groups. Groups are usually free and they’re a great way to learn the basics of the writing craft. They can get writers out of their “writing garrets” and help newbies navigate the treacherous waters of the ever-changing publishing industry.
But I also warn writers to be wary. Never take what you hear in critique groups or workshops as gospel. Groupthink can be dangerous. Petty tyrants often hold sway and the Dunning Kruger Effect can demonstrate itself on a regular basis. (That’s the scientific theory that the most ignorant people are usually the most confident.)
Even when you’ve found a wonderful critique group that seems knowledgeable, helpful and kind, they can sometimes steer you wrong, simply because of the nature of the group set-up. If your group reads work aloud, you’ll run into one set of problems. If you send copy ahead of time and red-pencil it, you’ll have another. The simple time-lapse can cause hassles too.
I got a big reality check about group critiques when my second novel was accepted by a small press and my manuscript came back bleeding with edits.
As I went through the manuscript doing rewrites, I realized nearly every issue my editor had with my work turned out to be something I’d added or subtracted at the request of various critique groups.
I agreed with almost every editorial correction. Actually, much of my editor’s criticism made me feel vindicated. He gave me the courage to ignore a whole lot of what I heard in group critiques after that.
In trying to please everybody, I had created a muddled mess.
Here are a few of the “critique group traps” I had fallen into:
1) Treating Readers as if they’re Memory-Challenged
Because in-person groups usually meet once or twice a month, members generally ask to be reminded who the characters are, what their relationships are to each other, what they look like, etc.
They also want a recap of the plot and subplots at the beginning of each reading.
This does not mean you should actually put that stuff in your book.
In a group like my present one, where many of us are getting on in years, about half of every critique consists of comments like, “I didn’t know the pizza man used to be married to Alice. You have to tell us that,” and “explain why they’re going to Mall of Doom. We were totally confused.”
But those “remind us” comments stem from the fact the group only meets twice a month and we all have memory issues, not because anything has been left out of the manuscript.
If we put all those reminders into our published books, our readers would scream the way my editor did. One of his red-inked comments said, “are you writing for Alzheimer’s patients? You’ve said this three times in two pages!”
2) Writing Conflict-Free Storylines and Wimpy Characters
I’d also removed some scenes because they offended one or two readers’ political or personal beliefs. Unfortunately, eliminating strong opinions left my characters with little or no motivation for their actions.
Often naive critiquers can’t tell the difference between a character’s beliefs and those of the author.
I remember being shocked when a woman wearing large Germanic sandals stomped out of a critique session when I was reading. My fashionista character was making snarky remarks about people who wear Birkenstocks. The character was a hopeless fashion victim and the work was satiric.
But the woman who stomped out was too busy being offended to notice that. Or the fact I was wearing Crocs at the time. 🙂
Some people thrive on being offended. It gives them a kind of high. They will look for any excuse to chase that rush.
A person in another group was furious that someone treated a Vietnam veteran character badly in one of my scenes. She angrily insisted I remove the entire chapter. But if I’d taken out the incident, I would have removed the reason for the veteran character’s anger, which propelled the plot.
Don’t let a group member’s need to be offended influence your writing or remove the engine that drives your story.
Making your characters agree with everybody in the group—or worse, resemble their idealized selves—can leave you with something that’s more like a Hallmark card than a novel.
3) Writing Off-Genre
Often critique groups grow out of college writing workshops, which may be taught by literature or poetry professors. Or they may be started by a genre group and expand into other genres.
There’s nothing wrong with that. But you need to make your own genre rules and expectations clear to the group.
My bleeding manuscript had way too much description. I was happy to remove it. Pretty much all the description came as a result of “helpful” suggestions from groups. One member was a poet who loved detailing minutia in a way that had no place in a breezy comic mystery.
I knew that, but I hadn’t been strong enough to ignore her weekly assertions that I needed more description. “What does the blood smell like?” she’d say. “Why don’t we know the texture of the victim’s coat? Is it a soft rain or a hard rain falling on the coffin?”
Those details bogged down the story. I needed to smile politely and ignore most of what she said.
In trying to throw literary stuff in my comic mystery, I’d ended up boring everybody. Sure, a mystery needs details to set the scene, but they should be added with quick, precise brushstrokes, not mellifluous lines of poesy.
The same is true in reverse. If you’re writing domestic literary fiction, a romantic comedy, or office satire, you don’t want to take advice from somebody like the thriller writer who once critiqued my work saying,”up the stakes! Where’s the danger? I don’t even believe the villain is going to rape her.”
No. He was not going to rape her. The bad guy was going to pull her book from the publishing calendar. That was a big threat, which would have thrown the character’s life into chaos and left her broke in a foreign country. Not all conflict is centered on rape, torture, or murder. People who don’t know that can only critique thrillers.
4) Member’s Agendas Can Creep into Your Book
Not everybody who writes is in good mental health. One or two unwell members can make a group feel like an unsafe place for many of us.
In which case, escape–quickly.
But sometimes a good group has one or two people who are simply annoying. If you can let yourself ignore them, you’ll do fine.
Those are the members with agendas.
There’s the believer in alien abduction who wants big-eyed gray persons in every scene of your book. And the recently sober 12-stepper who says all your characters are addicts. And the conspiracy theorist who doesn’t want you to mention JFK without adding the “fact” that Lee Harvey Oswald worked for Lizard People from Planet Zog.
These people are telling you about themselves, not what your book needs.
5) Critique Groups Can’t Help with Pacing or the Big Picture
I was surprised my book needed so much work with pacing and character arcs.
I didn’t realize that even though a book has been thoroughly critiqued by a group doesn’t mean it has been edited.
Groups generally discuss a chapter at a time. This means they often ignore the most important aspect of a novel—the story structure.
Sometimes when you use a critique group, you mistakenly feel your book is polished and ready to go. But when you send it to an agent or editor, you’ll get back a lot of negative feedback about “structure” or “pacing.”
This is when you really need the help of an editor. A group is wonderful for the minutiae of scenes and chapters, but when you read a book over the space of a year, no way can the group tell you if you’ve built up the tension in just the increments, or whether you’ve avoided a saggy middle. Or whether your climax happens at just the right moment.
Don’t feel your book is “ready” just because it has passed muster with a group. There’s a lot more work to be done. That’s why we have developmental editors.
6) Critique Groups Can Teach Bogus Writing Rules
I wrote a post last February about the “Writing Rules Police.” Critique Groups can throw some awfully strange rules at each other. These rules often have very murky origins—and nothing to do with grammar books or editorial precedent.
Somebody read them in a book once, heard them in a class, or even made them up, and some writing groups give them the power of religious dogma. Kris Rusch wrote a great post about the problem of “weird writing rules” in January.
Generally you want to keep away from any group that fetishizes rules.
Most of those “ironclad rules” began as guidelines or tips, and were never meant to be commandments carved in stone
This includes the Adverb Annihilators, the “Was” Police, and the Preposition Patrol (those folks who say you should never use a preposition to end a sentence with.)
If somebody tries pushing an odd rule at you, look it up in a reputable grammar book and ignore what has no basis in fact. You can always smile sweetly and say “duly noted” and ignore it. If people get rabid about silly rules, find another group.
How Critique Groups Can Help Your Writing Career
1) Discipline and Routine
When you need to have a chapter done for every meeting, you get a structure that keeps you working away on that WIP. More than once I’ve pounded out a chapter for a meeting when I felt otherwise blocked. I got something down on paper that turned out to keep the story moving. It seems to work for most of us.
For beginners, adding preparation for that meeting to your weekly to-do list helps you think of yourself as a professional.
2) Emotional Support
I can’t even list the number of times my critique group has helped me celebrate successes or nursed me through disappointments that non-writers simply can’t understand. From first contest win to requests for a partial to a major book contract, we share triumphs and celebrate when other friends shrug and say, “what’s a partial?” or “are you rich and famous yet?”
My writing group were also there for me when I got the manuscripts back from the agent or publisher with the “thanks but no thanks” note. And when that shortlisted story didn’t win the contest. Plus they gave me a place to come home to when and when my publisher crashed and burned and went out of business two months after finally publishing The Best Revenge.
I literally don’t think I would have made it without them.
3) Sharing Information about the Industry
For newbies who are starting out, there’s so much to learn. Yes, these days, the Internet gives us a lot more access to information than we had when I began my writing journey, but a whole lot of it is unreliable.
But when you can talk to people who have been there, done that, they can save you a lot of heartbreak. If you meet people who fell for that sweet-talking vanity press and have the empty wallets and soul-callouses to show it, they can save you a lot of money and heartbreak.
On the other hand, if you’re in a group where you see people winning contests and getting published, you can get a huge insight into how to do it right. Being around winners can make you feel like a winner.
4) Reading out Loud to Critique Groups Allows you to Hear your Work in a New Way
I think most of my best self-editing comes from what I hear when I read aloud to my critique group. They don’t have to say anything. Sometimes I can read the problems on their faces and sometimes I just hear it when I read.
That happened just last week. I’d read the piece out loud to myself and it seemed fine, but when I read it to the group, I realized…OMG, this doesn’t make any sense, does it? They all laughed and I immediately saw what I had done. A scene happened a whole day earlier than it should have. The characters wouldn’t have had a chance to travel, unless they’d used the “Beam Me Up Scotty” travel agency.
5) When a Bunch of People Tell You it’s Not Working, it’s Probably Not Working.
I’ve been with my group so long I can read chapter-fails on their faces. In groups that don’t know each other quite so well, you’ll often hear members skirting around a problem. trying to make nice. But you can usually see they’re trying to say the same thing.
“I think I’d like this guy more if he didn’t smoke.”
“Maybe you could give him a pet?”
“How about if he isn’t quite so angry in the first scene?”
The suggestions aren’t what’s important, but what they’re telling you is. You’ve got to work to make your hero a little more likeable or people aren’t going to want to read a whole book about him.
6) You Get An Idea of How Readers Will Respond to your Work
Finding out who your audience is—and isn’t—is one of the most important jobs of today’s authors. Whether you’re indie or trad, you need to know what audience to target.
Listening to the reactions people in your critique group can help. They may surprise you.
You may think you’re writing YA, but notice the younger people in the group are checking their phones as you read. But the older women are hanging on every word. Maybe you’re writing women’s fiction, not YA. Or maybe romance.
I thought my stories were chick lit until I saw the men were the ones laughing. What I’d written was satire, so I needed to target a different demographic.
If You’re Looking for a Critique Group
Mary Nickum wrote a great post on Jane Friedman’s blog on finding the right critique group online or in person. For online critique groups I recommend CritiqueCircle.com. And Jami Gold has some great info on her blog on beta readers and getting and giving feedback.
What about you, scriveners? What has been your experience with critique groups? Have you had mostly good experiences? Have you had some awful ones? Did any of them leave you scarred? What are some of the red flags that tell you a group is wrong for you?
by Anne R. Allen (@annerallen) September 4, 2016
Some Sad News
I had been going to add a suggestion here about taking online classes as an alternative to groups. The best place for online writing classes I know is the Writers’ Village where Dr. John Yeoman, PhD. offered top-notch instruction in affordable, no-BS online courses. Dr. John has also been a regular visitor to this blog and a frequent guest blogger here.
But I’d missed him this past month or so and discovered this week that he died on July 13th. I will miss him terribly. You can still find much of his fantastic writing advice at the Writers Village.
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This week on my book blog, I’m wrapping up my series on poisons, this time with the nasty poison Thallium, a favorite of evil dictators, both fictional and all too real.
BOOK OF THE MONTH
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Please note: I try to vet all the contests and opportunities I list here, but I may miss something, so always read the fine print, especially when it comes to copyright. Don’t enter a contest that takes rights for non-winning submissions, or asks for ALL rights, rather than first rights. More on this at Writer Beware.…Anne
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Anne—Excellent analysis and advice as always. I think of books as Rohrshach tests. Readers, reviewers, crit groups, editors—ALL react subjectively. The writer’s job is to develop his/her own style and approach despite the incoming. Easy to say. Not easy (but essential) to do. Takes time, lots of it, but well worth it.
Ruth–I love the metaphor of books as Rohrshach tests. So true. I’m always amazed at what people see in my books that i never intended. And you’re right–that’s their stuff, not mine. Writers just have to do what we do.
Some other guidelines for finding critique groups:
1. Find a good mix of writers of different skill levels. If they’re all beginners, you’re going to get a lot of the group think and weird writing rules. Worse, you’ll have an experience like the one I had below.
2. Find a group where the writers are well-read. In my first group, we had writers who “didn’t have time to read.” A good rule of thumb: Topics of books read should come up frequently at every meeting.
3. The writers should be in your genre. I had to review a fantasy book for a writer, and I could tell right away that he’d let his mixed genre critique group have too much control. He’d evidently not done a good job with the description, critique group told him it was boring and to get rid of it, so he took it out. Setting is why fantasy readers buy fantasy, and you lose setting without the description.
4. A comment is NOT a call for action to fix the story. You should weigh in on the comment and see if it makes sense for you. Way too many writers use it as a checklist, instead of cherry picking what works for the story, and then doing it their own way.
5. Always remember that you are the writer. You are the one has to make the decisions on what you use. You are the one who’s name goes on the manuscript, not the critique groups.
And if you are critiquing and you do not agree with a writing element (prologue, viewpoints, tense), do not blast the writer as incompetent. I got one of the worst critiques because my story was in omniscient viewpoint. I’d made a deliberate decision to use it, studied several writers who wrote it, and did my best on it. Six writers ganged up on me, not because I’d done it badly, but because everyone had told them omni was old fashioned and no one used it any more; therefore, I was stupid and didn’t know what I was doing (never mind that one of the writers I studied just released another book in omni). It was so bad that I had to take six weeks off from the story so I could see it objectively.
Linda–Thanks much for this great detailed list. You’re so right about the skill levels. A bunch of beginners can really be the blind leading the blind. And people who don’t read shouldn’t write. Period. I don’t know why they want to.
What an awful experience you had with that group! And unfortunately, it wasn’t unique. No omniscient narrators is one of those “weird writing rules” Kris Rusch talks about. I’m glad you could heal from that, but I understand why it took time.
Linda, your points are right on. I especially like your second point — I know too many writers who don’t take time to read, a big mistake. We should all be reading, and not just in the genres in which we write. And I don’t mean we must always be reading with a critical eye (although analyzing what works in other writers’ fiction can be an excellent exercise) — even when we are reading purely for pleasure, our minds are unconsciously absorbing ideas, patterns, techniques, and topics. Writers who seldom read are starving their own imaginations.
I believe some people thrive on being offended.
I’ve never been a part of a critique group in the real world, but having used several critique partners for my books, I know to think about it when one person says it but really consider making changes only when all or most say it.
And now that my books are in audio form, I can vouch for the read your story out loud! I wish I’d done that more with my first book because now I can hear some repetition.
Alex–People really do get a kind of high from self-righteous anger. They get addicted to it, like booze. So I figure we just have to realize they’re having a high old time and ignore them the way we would any drunk lurching out of a bar.
Hearing a book on audio is kind of a revelation isn’t it? I’ve just finished proofing the audio of So Much for Buckingham and I kept saying “who wrote that line?'” But it was too late to fix it 🙁
You’re right that the most important help you can get from a group is consensus. If everybody says something needs attention, it probably does, even though they all may have very different ideas of how it should be fixed.
Great post, Anne. I’ve never been a fan of critique groups, possibly because I think of myself as a solitary writer. I’ve had two great experiences: one with a professor who, when her class at CalPoly ended, asked a few of us if we wanted to meet at her home and continue chatting about our current work. We did, and I learned a lot. The other was an online flash fiction workshop where you were allowed to share a short piece of your own work for comments (only) after you’d critiqued five other short pieces by group members. The neat thing about this group, of about 45-60 members, is you often received 20 or so short critiques and then could consider at your leisure what “felt” right and what didn’t. I love what Ruth said about subjectivity and how we need to have the space to develop our own style and voice. (Paraphrased. Hope I got it right, Ruth.) 🙂 Could be why later in life I turned into a solitary writer. Also, I’m lucky to have a publisher who assigns a personal editor to work with us on our mss. For me, this works. However, I realize many writers love their writing groups. I just don’t think they work for me. Sharing this invaluable post, Anne. BRAVA! Paul
Paul–I think many authors “graduate” from a critique group to an editor when they start publishing. My editor with that first press forbade me to go back to my group. But after that publishing company went under, I went back, as much for the friendship and support as anything. But I do hear you. I think most pros don’t use groups. Although I hear Amy Tan still runs everything by her critique group.
P.S. Very sorry to hear about the passing of Dr. John Yeoman. I remember his posts and comments and how helpful they were to all of us.
Paul–It was really a blow to me. I considered him a good friend even though I’d never met him. He was a wonderful teacher and mentor to hundreds of writers. One of the good guys.
This is a very timely post! I’m at the point where I’m now looking for critique partners/circle. Not knowing anything about how the process works, I found your tips to be really helpful and insightful. Thanks!
Ellen–Groups can be a wonderful way to learn the ropes, so don’t let this put you off. Just don’t give them too much power and always consider the source. Best of luck!
I was planning a blog post for my writers group to drum up some new members when I read this article — the second half of the article has done my job for me (so be expecting a link-back). Excellent analysis, Anne. I find that, even when my critique partners make off-the-wall comments (doesn’t happen too often), just having someone respond immediately sparks ideas in my brain on how to improve my piece. In fact, sometimes I get ideas as soon as I hand it off to someone else, even before they give me feedback. I guess it’s just the mental stimulus of getting the work outside my own head.
LA–Thanks for the pingback in advance. 🙂 I think I get some of my best editing ideas just looking at the faces of my critique group after I finish a read. I can tell exactly whether something worked or didn’t. And often as I’m reading I’ll stop myself and say “Steve is going to say this is going on too long” because it is. Ha! You’ve put it very well. It’s “getting the work outside my own head.”
Wonderful again! I love the comments, too. I learn so much from everyone. I’ve shared this post as well(as your other post about crit groups) with my critique group. We’ve continued to grow, but still slip into some of those pitfalls!
I do love the crit group as part of the process, and for me, it’s at the beginning, not the end. LOL
1. First Draft
2. Let FD sit a bit then go back and do 2-4 more drafts/edits
3. Submit to Crit group
4. Edit based on feedback
5. Beta readers 3-5 different readers in my target audience
6. Edit based on feedback
7. Pro editor
8. Edit based on feedback
9. Pro Proofread
10. Ready for publication
PS, sorry to hear about John, sorry for your loss and the community’s.
Tam–That sounds like a very good plan of approach!
First off, RIP Dr. Yeoman, he was quite an inspiration to me.
As for critique groups, ouch. I have only been in two and both left me spinning my wheels and not making the progress I had expected. The first one had a lady who ‘presided’ over anything grammatical with the pronouncement that she was THE ADVERB NAZI. Her words not mine. There was little room for discussion if you were a newbie, like the old school belief of my 98 yr old dad, ‘children are to be seen and not heard’.
The second group deep in the heart of Mormon country cannot abide anything that can be twisted to be rude, crude, or obscene, no matter how hard they have to work at it.
Fortunately I have found a writing partner to bounce ideas back and forth without stigmatization. We support and encourage each other to do better. Our monthly meetings are fun, lively and full of positive energy.
Please keep these posts coming, they provide me with a little energy boost every week. LIke hooking up to a battery charger to top off the battery for the work ahead.
David
David–Dr. John was one of a kind. I will miss him terribly.
It sounds as if you ran into two of the worst kinds of writing groups. 1) The one run by the tyrannical “weird rule” enforcer and 2) agenda-driven groupthink. Good for you for escaping with your work intact. Sometimes a good beta reader or writing partner is all you need.
Thanks for letting me know these posts are useful to you!
Anne, I’m never late to respond to your posts… without regretting it. Fabulous! I want #5 in the “Bad” list and #4 from the “Good” one carved in stone up on Mt. Rushmore or something. Pace and the Big Picture are all yours as the author, that is spot-on: and it’s doubly true, I think, when you’re writing say, the second 400-page novel as a sequel to the first. Deciding when to repeat that crucial piece of info (and try to SHOW it, of course, not tell), how many “hammocks” to allow as the plot swirls… these poor crit group folks are so supportive, but they have their own lives! Thing is, I don’t know if anyone reads 200 pages at a stretch anymore- maybe that kind of feedback is more valid with an epic. I guess I’d better focus on making them irresistible…
And Reading Out Loud, absolutely! I write so slowly, I find myself going back to proof and polish just to get a running start and another paragraph down the road. Reading out loud is a regular part of my program. Since my crit group is online, they escape this particular chore but I make up for it in spades at home.
Never stop posting such golden stuff.
Will–I know you write high fantasy and it has its own set of rules. People aren’t going to read it at one or two sittings like a mystery, so they need to be reminded why all those Hobbitses are on their way to Mount Disaster for the magical jewelry item. Pacing is different too. It’s a little like a series within a novel. Getting critiqued by non-fantasy authors probably results in a lot of irrelevant comments.
But reading out loud works no matter what your genre. Thanks!
I’ve lost count for the number of critique groups I’ve been in over the years. Six or more. I found them more useful for short stories than for novels–I was only in ones that did not read aloud. What I remember the most is when two other members would get into an argument about something another writer wrote. One saying it was fine after another picked apart a particular section. After that happened a few times, I realized that I had to make the choice, and that in the end that would always be true. I no longer tried to fix everything someone complained about. Your two lists are excellent. Everyone who has never been in a group before should read it.
Jan–I prefer groups that read aloud, but that does mean the pieces have to be short. And you don’t get feedback on spelling and grammar. It can be interesting to hear other members arguing over a piece. It’s a great education in the subjective nature of reading–what Ruth pointed out in her comment. Sometimes everybody sees something different. So the final decision is always with the author.
Anne, Sorry to hear about Dr. John. Always hard to lose a friend.
Your post is spot on again for me. I am three months into a 4-member, in-person group of local children’s book writers. They are an awesome, supportive bunch, and I feel lucky to benefit from the discipline and emotional support I’ve found. I especially appreciate your reminder about not feeling obligated to accept all feedback (though most has been on target).
Cat–I’m so glad to hear about a group that works! When they do, they can be pure gold. But even the best groups will have feedback that doesn’t resonate with you. Make note of it but don’t change your work unless you feel it improves it.
Anne, thanks for another good column and a timely one for me, especially the things to watch out for. (note the preposition at the end.)
I lead a critique group, one which I’ve been in for years. I’ve been spending a lot of time lately considering other ways we can be helpful to our writers. It now seems likely to me that our members begin reading as though they are on a scavenger hunt–not to find treasure, but to identify all that’s wrong with the work in front of them. What stops the reader, why this word would be better than the one the author used, etc.
I’ve just begun a new approach to critiquing. I’m looking for what works and why it works. In the past, that had been my objective, too, but I didn’t develop it enough and the majority of my critique focused on what didn’t work and why.
I’m too new at this different approach to give any details of the type of analysis I used to look for the things that pull a reader in and keep them turning pages. But, I’m on a new journey. My belief is that, even if my group doesn’t buy my new approach, the process of employing it myself will improve my own writing skills and my ability to recognize how to make my writing work for my readers.
Funny, your mention of the negative reaction of a vet being treated badly is so much like a comment I received yesterday, about my vet with PTSD. His wife, who was also the victim of his PTSD, got very frustrated with his inaction and demanded he do something. Supposedly, this made her less likeable as a character. My purpose was to show the desperation the two of them were feeling and there inability to react with compassion.
I don’t intend to change this scene, but perhaps I need to build more of an awareness of what it is like for people with PTSD and their families.
Thanks again for all your thought-provoking columns. This one was just what I needed to work on my new critiquing process, as well as looking at the critiques I receive in a different light.
Judy–Hooray for your new approach to critiquing. It’s much better for the writer. When I studied stage directing, we were taught to give an actor two positive notes for every negative one, and I try to use that “sandwich” technique for critiques too.
If you look for what works, it’s easier to point out what doesn’t work. Plus a writer (or actor) is much more likely to be able to hear it and change what needs work. Too much negativity makes a person shut down because they feel under attack.
I hope you stood your ground with your PTSD character. Every character needs flaws. If everybody’s perfect, you’ve got no story.
Thank you, Anne. Great post. I have experienced all of these; the goods and the bads. And you are right on with the way you explain, and warn against or embrace each one. So sorry to hear about your writerly friend. I often enjoyed his blog myself. So sad to lose a good blogger.
Blog on, Anne! You are one of the best!
Christine–Groups have their ups and downs, even good ones. One member can change the nature of a group and people don’t realize a power struggle has emerged.
John was a positive force in the blogosphere. He will be missed.
Anne: As you know, my favorite critique group was the one your late mother started. I belonged to several groups before I met her, but none since. However, I’m experiencing Writers Block for the first time in my life, and am hoping to find a group that can knock me out of that.
Phyllis–My mom’s group was something special. She kept things going and never let one person’s agenda take over.
I’m so sad to hear about your writer’s block. You’ve always been such a prolific writer! It may be you’re still healing from your medical problems earlier this year. But you’re right that a group can sometimes help with writer’s block. I should have mentioned that in the “Pros” section. The discipline and routine of the writers group can get you to put something on paper even when you don’t feel like it. Good luck!
I love that you ended a sentence with a preposition! Thank you! <3 I like that you clarify the difference between realistic versus unrealistic goals of a critique group.
Have you read Kyoko Mori's book, Polite Lies? (full disclosure: I'm not connected to her and don't receive any benefit from recommending the book) She has a great chapter critiquing writer workshops that I think you might enjoy.
I have participated in workshops and led them. I think the most difficult part is finding the right balance between being supportive without turning it into a support group. We want to support each other, but a good workshop should include intelligent and constructive feedback to make the story better. It's really hard to do that consistently with a group of people. Seems like egos, idiosyncracies, agendas, etc. get in the way. It also seems like the best group members inevitably are the ones who get too busy or move away. I've never tried an online critique group but might look into one.
Thanks for another great article!
Anastasia–I’ll have to check out Kyoko Mori’s book. There’s also a hilarious film on the subject, called Authors Anonymous, starring Kaley Cuoco and the late Dennis Farina (written by my friend Dave Congalton.) It’s a hoot.
You’ve brought up a very important point: The tendency of some critique groups to turn into group therapy. That can be a slippery slope. A good moderator needs to keep the group on course.
People who have history in therapy groups or 12-step programs may automatically gravitate toward a more confessional type of “sharing” rather than critiquing. And it may be hard to keep them from indulging in cross-talk. This does not help with improving members’ writing. People will be afraid to actually critique if things start to focus on personal tragedies and issues.
One of the tell-tale signs things are moving in that direction is when a critiquer starts calling the character “you” as if the protagonist is the author. Then you know things may be about to turn into group therapy.
Online critique groups tend to avoid that particular pitfall. You may find they better suit your needs. Also, they’re much easier to leave gracefully.
Thank you for this article, Anne.
I live on a remote island. Basically there’s one critique to choose from. Thankfully it’s a very helpful one. I’ve been a member for about ten years. In the beginning it was very hard to have my work dissected and left bleeding on the table — an exaggeration, but in mind that’s what happened. But they have given me piles of gold in the form of feedback. And currently I’m sharing mainly short stories. So there’s no memory problem. : )
Leanne–How great that the one group turned out to be a good one! That could be a problem if you had some difficult members. Short stories do help with the memory problems–as long as they’re short enough for one session. 🙂
Last November I left a critique group last fall that I’d been with, and adored, for a many of years. Several members were committed writers with gave really sound advice (and boy, do I miss that!). But then a key member left, a lot of new people came in who were just beginning the earliest stages of their writer journey, and a large portion of the group became filled with self-declared ‘social justice warriors.’ The next thing I know, entire stories I’d plotted out and researched were getting scrapped. I spent more time stripping out all the ‘trigger words’ and violence from my epic fantasy rough drafts than I spent actually getting feedback. I finally left and joined a ‘The Artist’s Way’ creativity group to undo the damage. To this day, two books I researched and brought to those critiques remain unfinished … all due to negative feedback at that vulnerable point when you’re still getting to know and work out the bugs in your characters.
Anna–I am so sorry to hear about your experience. Unfortunately you’re not alone. Last year we got hit by some of these control-freaks here on the blog. These are seriously not-smart people who pervert basic ideas of minority and victim’s rights to mean “nobody can write about anything, ever.”
They are fascist, narcissistic bullies. They hand bad guys ammunition to justify persecuting women and minorities. Unfortunately, misguided segments of academia feed their neuroses. I’m glad you got help to recover from their bullying.
They are trying to destroy our entire cultural heritage. I hope somebody squashes them before it’s too late and we’re not allowed to read Shakespeare or Chaucer or Swift or Austen or the Brontes any other dead English people and we’re left with rainbows and unicorns and oh, I’m going to throw up now….
I guess what bothers me the most about these people is they are mostly women, and they want to be treated like delicate little flowers in gilded cages. They don’t want anybody to discuss rape or murder or abuse of because that offends their delicate little feminine sensibilities. And of course if you pretend that stuff doesn’t happen, it doesn’t, right? It’s as if they want to go back to the antebellum south and become Scarlett O’Hara. Fiddle-dee-dee! I want to tell them to grow some ovaries, b****es! I burned my bra for you. 🙂
Hey Anne – As a member of two long-standing critique groups, I’ve seen all these things happen: the good & the bad (& a bit of the ugly which you kindly omitted). Your #1 reason critique groups are good is my #1 reason. The deadlines inherent in meeting regularly keep me writing. I don’t work at NaNoWriMo speed, but I get ’em done, in large part because someone’s out there waiting for the next chapter (or at least I think so). Thanks for another fine post.
CS–I think the first thing that got me thinking of myself as “a writer” was having a critique group where i was expected to show up every week with something written. I would never have had the discipline to write every week without it. So #1 is huge for me, and I think it is for a lot of writers, especially at the beginning of their careers.
NaNo may work for some people. but I still thinks slow and steady is what actually wins the race and critique groups can help you be in it for the marathon, rather than the sprint. And that’s what a writing career is.
Going down the list was like hearing critiques on my work, which I’ve questioned. Even going to professionals I have received exactly opposite advice. It all helps, as long as step back and make my own decisions-write my own course. Thanks for the reminders.
Redd–Isn’t it amazing how many times you get opposite critiques? Where you can learn from them is by looking at where the critiques coincide. If one says you need more description in the beginning and the other says you need more action at the beginning, they’re probably both wrong, but you might want to look at a rewrite of your opener. Something there needs work, but they don’t know what. The rest is, as you say, up to you. 🙂
I’m not fond of critique groups, especially in writing. Too many people in these writing groups think of themselves as editors and writing experts. I like mentors, and a crit partner or two. Two many people and you will get one person saying something and another saying the opposite. When that happens, I ignore them both. Some crits just look for anything they personally don’t like. One online instructor told me to ignore the bad advice a few critiquers gave me, and reminded me that it’s MY story. Don’t try to please everyone. . .These points are excellent. We have to put critiques in the proper perspective. One professional – wasn’t very professional in that she criticized a draft that another professional (mentoring) loved. I found out later she didn’t really want to mentor, she wanted to get back to her own writing. She was the type that makes you not want to write anymore. I complained to the organization (a writing org) and they assigned me a perfect mentor. What a difference!
DG–The wrong group, editor or mentor can definitely stall your writing or even set you back. In a group, you’ll always get conflicting opinions, so you have to consider the source and see which one resonates with you. When you get to know the people in a group well, you will anticipate this one will always want more description, this one will want more action etc.
Then there is the problem of the clueless self-appointed “authorities” that you mention. That’s the Dunning Kruger Effect at work. Ignorance combined with arrogance can be toxic. One of my groups was almost destroyed by an uneducated new member who had read one book on writing romances that she treated as if Moses had brought it down from the mountaintop. If everybody didn’t adhere to the rules in that book, she’d actually have screaming temper tantrums. Luckily she quit in a fit of pique. We were all so relieved
Interesting, and I experienced some of it by now. Still I found useful help, which otherwise costs more money than I can earn.
Trolling and psycho-tyrants are real, but most are too unstable to write a real critique, so watch out for people, who’s criticism is always much like the one they dished before (copy & paste with minor word changes at best).
But on the good side, as a Non-Native-Speaker I received helpful notes on how to formulate prose, on grammar issues, and on HOW my text is perceived from an ‘unprepared reader’ perspective aka POV (point of view). Such is helpful, even though the risk of sharing & copying copies of files I have in sales must be limited to small works.
Sadly this means ‘free critiques’ are more beneficial to authors of flash fiction, short stories, and Novelette works. Novella and Novel writers (I still prefer authors to writers) can find themselves ‘bogged down’ in chapter by chapter work through, or overrun by wanna-be’s and people only building a facade to unleash their toxic negativity unto the few real ones (machinations of envy in social media & stuff).
Andre–You’re right that some people simply want to unleash their negativity and anger on any vulnerable victim, and online critiques and forums unfortunately provide them with their choice of prey.
Novel critiques are problematic, as you say. It’s really impossible for a critique group to give you all you need in terms of pacing, character arc, etc. For that you need a good beta reader.
Great article! I belong to a writing group, and left for a couple years because of some of the inane comments from a couple of people in the group. Example: one person could not understand why one of my characters was of Italian heritage but had an English surname. I just looked at them in shock and I wanted to say “are you for real? Did you not know that millions of people in America have an English surname but their ancestry is totally something else?”
Also, I found that many of them believed in Dumb Rules of Writing, such as an over-emphasis on “Show-Don’t-Tell” (a highly overrated “rule” IMHO), or “don’t use adverbs.” So I left and then came back after awhile, and surprise, I found new members who possessed more common sense.
I really liked that you included the positive aspects of being in a writing group. This new version of my group is much more supportive than the first.
Mystery–It’s amazing how one or two clueless members can ruin a critique group. I agree with you on Show-Don’t-Tell. Here’s my post on why it’s bad advice for new writers. https://selfpublishingsites.com/2016/03/show-tell-terrible-advice-writers/